Re viking, direct injection with a single pump, ugh. Driven be a custom sin
gle ECU (what could go wrong?), duty cycle (oiling clearances etc) risks as y
ou mentioned, & Heavy as heck. Shadetree gearbox with simple and i submit in
sufficient rubber coupling for resonances. Jan throws garbage on the market a
nd lets the customers teeth out the deficiencies. He=99s no engineer, b
ut a legacy vw mechanic by training. More than a few power unit failures now
(with deaths) as they are starting to get airborn.
Re 912s piston kits: would luv to see reliabilty data. Keep hearing bad thin
gs. Compression still stock?
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Nov 11, 2022, at 11:21 PM, Brian Phillips <barp99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB Thanks for that Pete, good to know. As you say, too few accumula
ted hours to build reliable predictability. At least the big bore kit does n
ot need any changes to crank, which is essentially the same as the 914 with t
he same output. The lighter than standard pistons may even reduce crank stre
sses.
>
> I did look at the Viking options, I could be wrong but I seem to remember b
elt drive issues, recessed valves & delivery issues. I believe the crank fil
lets are smaller on auto engines compared to A/C engines, and with the 100% d
uty factor can cause cracks, not sure if this applies to the suby though. I d
o have an EJ25 in my road car, 200K miles, no problems, great engine.
>
> William, your Columbian turbo does interest me, I remember you used a Mits
ubishi turbo. Do you use it to normalize or do you actually add a bit more b
oost in?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Brian Phillips.
>
>> On 11/11/2022 10:30 pm, Pete wrote:
>> My experience conversing with Edge=99s principal over the years, fw
iw, is that he is chock full of confidence, many good ideas but peppered wit
h some critical bad ones -which he will not acknowledge, and lets his custom
ers =9Cprove him wrong=9D. And some have (ex: cracked/failed wel
ded crank). Too few accumulated hours to tease out all that pepper.
>>
>> Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although Jan even lacks the engineering b
asics).
>>
>> Difficult to watch.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> PeteZ
>>
>>> On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian Phillips <barp99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> =EF=BB Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out advice below, muc
h appreciated, your background knowledge never ceases to amaze me.
>>>
>>> You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of doing all the retrofit
work, along with the weight issues, its just not worth it, and I would nev
er finish it. I am still interested in the 912Is, & was thinking about the E
dge 1484cc big bore kit. Your comments below about some of the US based big b
ore kits has got me thinking again. 10.5:1 CR does seem a little high, combi
ned with no detonation detection feedback loop, does sound a bit risky. Edge
performance don't play with the Rotax FI software, they supply a fuel press
ure reg that increases the rail pressure, so the pump/s are working harder, a
gain an added risk. Add to that limited operational history, makes the 914 l
ook an even better outcome. As you say, 20,000 compromises flying in close f
ormation.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Brian Phillips.
>>>
>>> On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly wrote:
>>>> Pete, as you are most aware and Brian you are learning fast:
>>>> Weight is the enemy of an airplane. Especially the Europa, as it is a v
ery compact aircraft. If I add 15 horsepower, but it moves the CG forward, r
equires a prop extension and a constant speed prop, the CG is going to be so
mewhere around the spinner. Now we move the battery back, run longer heavie
r cables and as much more to the rear as possible such as autopilots, ELTs, e
tc. to counterbalance the nose. The weight just keeps going up. The Europa X
S is 100 pounds heavier than the equivalent Europa Classic even with the XS f
uselage module and firewall forward. The 912 80 HP is not a spectacular per
former but will give 30 ANMPG at low altitude or with a leaning device at al
titudes up to about 10,000 feet. Cruise is in the 120-130 knot range. The 9
12S raised the cruise about 5 knots more. The 914 doubles the climb rate, u
ps cruise to at least 140-145 knot range at the same 25 ANMPG as the 912S on
a tricycle gear aircraft of course. The mono is faster and lighter of cour
se.
>>>>
>>>> As I learned on modifying the 914 to fuel injection. Customers moved t
he boost up to get more power but complained it burned more fuel. The only a
dvantage was more power with less reliability. Fuel burn was basically the s
ame at 31 inches and 5000 RPM. So, what did I gain? Slightly more power fo
r climb but more heat to dissipate, a bigger radiator and shallow climb was n
ecessary to cool. BTU requirements are the same for the same amount of powe
r at the same fuel air ratio and varies little with displacement. Aircraft e
ngines run at constant RPMs like a marine engines, so a carb is just as good
as fuel injection except for altitude performance of a normally aspirated e
ngine with no leaning. The Bing stops leaning after about 3500 feet in the n
ormally aspirated engine. So, an after market leaning system is necessary f
or the high altitude flyers to improve fuel efficiency of the 912/912S. The
Rotax 914 is ideal for higher altitude operations and frankly ideal for the
Europa but at a higher cost. I believe the 914 totally transformed the Euro
pa into a great airplane. Reliability of the 914 is now as good as the 912S b
ut as we all know, there are techniques and inspections required to keep it r
unning like new.
>>>>
>>>> Normally a 912 through the 914 will go 1000 hours with only carb mainte
nance/oil changes. Overspeed of the engine is an issue many ignore. The va
lves can and do contact the piston if oversped. Prop strikes are ignored al
so by many STOL operators and taildragger/mono.
>>>> I do a top overhaul at about 500-600 hours (gearbox, clean up the valve
s, inspect the rings/cylinders) and press on. Repeat at 1000 hours and the e
ngine is good to 1500 hours. The cleanup of the valves restores compression
to like new or better than new and is really a surprise when a 914 burps af
ter only about 5 blades of rotation.
>>>>
>>>> I have no experience with the latest Edge Performance engines, but I do
with the so called "Big Bore" engines done here in the States some years ag
o. They do put out more power. But for how long? Over the years the stock
Rotax 100 HP 912S (especially the new blocks) last and last. Most of the B
ig Bores were back in after as short as 200 hours. But we have many cowboys
here in the States that just want more power but won't pay for it to get po
wer and reliability. I was around for the first of these Big Bore mods. As
Edge Performance has found out, the crank shaft, and many other formally ro
bust Rotax parts are now under more stress and required "upgrade". This cos
ts money. My hats off to them, as they have at least backed their engines.
In their defense, some of our =9Ccowboys=9D here in the States a
re running regular car fuel. This causes detonation for sure. I can=99
t fix stupid!
>>>>
>>>> If you need more power keep in mind in general you will need more gas, g
ain weight, reduce reliability, increase inspection requirements, require gr
eater cooling mass, and of course add cost. An airplane is 20,000 compromis
es flying in close formation. If you change one thing, you affect 20 others
. Choose wisely.
>>>>
>>>> Example: Charts are scare still for the 915.
>>>> 5000 RPM wide open throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP (10-20 more than the 9
14 depending on MP and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.
>>>> A 20 HP increase on N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise speed increase of n
early 10-13 Kts above 10,000 feet which is better than most.
>>>> However, the range in Air Nautical Mile per Gallon does not increase it
decreases from about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.
>>>>
>>>> The Europa drag goes up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root for the trigear
. The mono is much better at still basically a square root curve. More hor
sepower doesn=99t give me impressive efficiency or speed.
>>>>
>>>> The 914 fits easily in the Europa XS, will cool, accepts a constant spe
ed prop without issue or added extensions, has a reasonable fuel burn and wi
ll get you to 10,000 feet in about 11-13 minutes in a cruise climb. I can p
ut out 70 to 95 horsepower continuous for cruise (typically 140-145 for a tr
igear) or max speed. Both the 912S/iS and Big Bore require the same octane f
uel as the 914 so no advantage. The 914 turbo takes care of most of the iss
ues with density altitude, it allows the Bing to work ideally from cruise to
max continuous from the surface to service ceiling (which is well above 25,
000 which is our human physiological limit without cabin pressurization). W
e know how to maintain it, the TCU has been modified and I can setup, troubl
eshoot or simply run a data dump from my laptop running Windows 7 through 10
without a special dongle. I don=99t have Windows 11 yet, but it shou
ld work also. Carbs are easy to balance, and the installation manual is eas
y to follow. Always follow the engine installation manual in conjunction wi
th the airframe firewall forward manual .
>>>>
>>>> The 915 was never designed to fit a standard Rotax engine mount and doe
s not fit most experimental aircraft firewall forwards. Extensive work is n
ecessary to retrofit the 915 to a 912/914 airframe. The 915 is unmaintainab
le but for plugs and oil change without a =9Cbuds=9D system for t
he average owner to tell you what it=99s doing but the troubleshooting
manual is a bit sparce. Much study and patience is needed as the 915 goes t
hrough its teething issues. It runs lean on the ground like the 912iS and w
ill overheat easily during an extended taxi out. Automatic systems means yo
u the pilot lose control. Many 912iS owners hate the power drop off and fin
d economy only comes through lower power. They have found fuel burn is the s
ame for the same speed after an engine change from the S to the iS. The 915
has a similar issue with the power requirements. It is not like hopping in
to your BMW tubo and everything works. It is still like the 1980=99s f
irst gen fuel injection and turbo mods. Today it all works flawlessly in ou
r autos, but with larger cooling requirements and components taking up more s
pace under the hood. The 915 is not quite a plug and play engine electrical
ly either. Look at Sling and their learning curve. The 4 place needs 140-1
50 HP. The two place not so much. Guys are looking hard at the difference.
>>>>
>>>> In summary, the Europa was designed for about 100HP engines of light we
ight. It is fast and efficient for a 100HP 500 pound payload airplane. Mor
e weight makes the induced drag go up. The mono airframe was not designed t
o go faster than about 170 KTAS at 20,000 feet at an empty weight of 900 pou
nds. If you go above 900 pounds empty weight, the plane gets sluggish, spee
d drops and range is decreased. In the States, a 1000 mile per day range ai
rplane is essential for getting around west of the Mississippi river. For my
snow birds coming from Canada to Florida for the winter, they need that ran
ge also. Frankly, a bigger engine makes for shorter hops, less payload, and
a longer day. More horsepower is not as important as more torque. Torque
turns the prop, HP just makes it spin up faster.
>>>>
>>>> Keep it light, keep it simple, and it will be a trouble-free steed with
stock components. Work on drag reduction and keeping the weight down. Not
by slapping more horsepower, weight, complexity, and cost on a very small a
irframe.
>>>>
>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> Bud Yerly
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@
matronics.com> On Behalf Of Pete
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM
>>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your Europa this wee
k - 08/11/22
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> .except for the concerns of Edge welded cranks (cracking), and
single point of failure (FI).
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> PeteZ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On Nov 10, 2022, at 1:58 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com> w
rote:
>>>> >
trial@gmail.com>
>>>> >
>>>> > Brian the Edge Performance engines are worth looking at if forward ma
ss is a concern... the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is said to finally be showing reliab
ility but i would still choose Edge over Jabiru
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Read this topic online here:
>>>> >
>>>> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffo
rums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D508643%23508643&data=05%7C01%
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qQBLFoORotf%2FyaLw%2FmFIOZbrmrQPIcMlLUf4%3D&reserved=0
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
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