Thanks Pete, I didn't realize Viking had so many issues, I'm glad I
removed it from my short list long ago. With the 912s piston kits, they
utilize the original heads, so the pistons must have a slightly deeper
dish than the standard pistons. Not sure if the quench area changes. So
bigger piston diameter plus extra dish area means more heat to reject.
CR is 10.5:1, down from std 11:1, this helps. I need to find some
reliability data from actual users.
Cheers,
Brian Phillips.
On 12/11/2022 10:06 pm, Pete wrote:
> Re viking, direct injection with a single pump, ugh. Driven be a
> custom single ECU (what could go wrong?), duty cycle (oiling
> clearances etc) risks as you mentioned, & Heavy as heck. Shadetree
> gearbox with simple and i submit insufficient rubber coupling for
> resonances. Jan throws garbage on the market and lets the customers
> teeth out the deficiencies. Hes no engineer, but a legacy vw mechanic
> by training. More than a few power unit failures now (with deaths) as
> they are starting to get airborn.
>
> Re 912s piston kits: would luv to see reliabilty data. Keep hearing
> bad things. Compression still stock?
>
> Cheers,
> PeteZ
>
>> On Nov 11, 2022, at 11:21 PM, Brian Phillips <barp99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for that Pete, good to know. As you say, too few accumulated
>> hours to build reliable predictability. At least the big bore kit
>> does not need any changes to crank, which is essentially the same as
>> the 914 with the same output. The lighter than standard pistons may
>> even reduce crank stresses.
>>
>> I did look at the Viking options, I could be wrong but I seem to
>> remember belt drive issues, recessed valves & delivery issues. I
>> believe the crank fillets are smaller on auto engines compared to A/C
>> engines, and with the 100% duty factor can cause cracks, not sure if
>> this applies to the suby though. I do have an EJ25 in my road car,
>> 200K miles, no problems, great engine.
>>
>> William, your Columbian turbo does interest me, I remember you used a
>> Mitsubishi turbo. Do you use it to normalize or do you actually add a
>> bit more boost in?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Brian Phillips.
>>
>> On 11/11/2022 10:30 pm, Pete wrote:
>>> My experience conversing with Edges principal over the years, fwiw,
>>> is that he is chock full of confidence, many good ideas but peppered
>>> with some critical bad ones -which he will not acknowledge, and lets
>>> his customers prove him wrong. And some have (ex: cracked/failed
>>> welded crank). Too few accumulated hours to tease out all that pepper.
>>>
>>> Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although Jan even lacks the
>>> engineering basics).
>>>
>>> Difficult to watch.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> PeteZ
>>>
>>>> On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian Phillips <barp99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out advice below, much
>>>> appreciated, your background knowledge never ceases to amaze me.
>>>>
>>>> You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of doing all the
>>>> retrofit work, along with the weight issues, its just not worth
>>>> it, and I would never finish it. I am still interested in the
>>>> 912Is, & was thinking about the Edge 1484cc big bore kit. Your
>>>> comments below about some of the US based big bore kits has got me
>>>> thinking again. 10.5:1 CR does seem a little high, combined with no
>>>> detonation detection feedback loop, does sound a bit risky. Edge
>>>> performance don't play with the Rotax FI software, they supply a
>>>> fuel pressure reg that increases the rail pressure, so the pump/s
>>>> are working harder, again an added risk. Add to that limited
>>>> operational history, makes the 914 look an even better outcome. As
>>>> you say, 20,000 compromises flying in close formation.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Brian Phillips.
>>>>
>>>> On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Pete, as you are most aware and Brian you are learning fast:
>>>>>
>>>>> Weight is the enemy of an airplane.Especially the Europa, as it is
>>>>> a very compact aircraft.If I add 15 horsepower, but it moves the
>>>>> CG forward, requires a prop extension and a constant speed prop,
>>>>> the CG is going to be somewhere around the spinner.Now we move the
>>>>> battery back, run longer heavier cables and as much more to the
>>>>> rear as possible such as autopilots, ELTs, etc. to counterbalance
>>>>> the nose. The weight just keeps going up. The Europa XS is 100
>>>>> pounds heavier than the equivalent Europa Classic even with the XS
>>>>> fuselage module and firewall forward.The 912 80 HP is not a
>>>>> spectacular performer but will give 30 ANMPG at low altitude or
>>>>> with a leaning device at altitudes up to about 10,000 feet. Cruise
>>>>> is in the 120-130 knot range.The 912S raised the cruise about 5
>>>>> knots more.The 914 doubles the climb rate, ups cruise to at least
>>>>> 140-145 knot range at the same 25 ANMPG as the 912S on a tricycle
>>>>> gear aircraft of course.The mono is faster and lighter of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I learned on modifying the 914 to fuel injection.Customers
>>>>> moved the boost up to get more power but complained it burned more
>>>>> fuel.The only advantage was more power with less reliability.Fuel
>>>>> burn was basically the same at 31 inches and 5000 RPM.So, what did
>>>>> I gain?Slightly more power for climb but more heat to dissipate, a
>>>>> bigger radiator and shallow climb was necessary to cool.BTU
>>>>> requirements are the same *for the same amount of power* at the
>>>>> same fuel air ratio and varies little with displacement.Aircraft
>>>>> engines run at constant RPMs like a marine engines, so a carb is
>>>>> just as good as fuel injection except for altitude performance of
>>>>> a normally aspirated engine with no leaning.The Bing stops leaning
>>>>> after about 3500 feet in the normally aspirated engine.So, an
>>>>> after market leaning system is necessary for the high altitude
>>>>> flyers to improve fuel efficiency of the 912/912S.The Rotax 914 is
>>>>> ideal for higher altitude operations and frankly ideal for the
>>>>> Europa but at a higher cost. I believe the 914 totally transformed
>>>>> the Europa into a great airplane. Reliability of the 914 is now as
>>>>> good as the 912S but as we all know, there are techniques and
>>>>> inspections required to keep it running like new.
>>>>>
>>>>> Normally a 912 through the 914 will go 1000 hours with only carb
>>>>> maintenance/oil changes.Overspeed of the engine is an issue many
>>>>> ignore.The valves can and do contact the piston if oversped.Prop
>>>>> strikes are ignored also by many STOL operators and taildragger/mono.
>>>>>
>>>>> I do a top overhaul at about 500-600 hours (gearbox, clean up the
>>>>> valves, inspect the rings/cylinders) and press on.Repeat at 1000
>>>>> hours and the engine is good to 1500 hours.The cleanup of the
>>>>> valves restores compression to like new or better than new and is
>>>>> really a surprise when a 914 burps after only about 5 blades of
>>>>> rotation.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no experience with the latest Edge Performance engines, but
>>>>> I do with the so called "Big Bore" engines done here in the States
>>>>> some years ago.They do put out more power.But for how long?Over
>>>>> the years the stock Rotax 100 HP 912S (especially the new blocks)
>>>>> last and last.Most of the Big Bores were back in after as short as
>>>>> 200 hours.But we have many cowboys here in the States that just
>>>>> want more power but won't pay for it to get power _and
>>>>> reliability_.I was around for the first of these Big Bore mods.As
>>>>> Edge Performance has found out, the crank shaft, and many other
>>>>> formally robust Rotax parts are now under more stress and required
>>>>> "upgrade".This costs money.My hats off to them, as they have at
>>>>> least backed their engines.In their defense, some of our cowboys
>>>>> here in the States are running regular car fuel. This causes
>>>>> detonation for sure. I cant fix stupid!
>>>>>
>>>>> If you need more power keep in mind in general you will need more
>>>>> gas, gain weight, reduce reliability, increase inspection
>>>>> requirements, require greater cooling mass, and of course add
>>>>> cost.An airplane is 20,000 compromises flying in close
>>>>> formation.If you change one thing, you affect 20 others.Choose wisely.
>>>>>
>>>>> Example:Charts are scare still for the 915.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5000 RPM wide open throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP (10-20 more than
>>>>> the 914 depending on MP and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.
>>>>>
>>>>> A 20 HP increase on N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise speed increase
>>>>> of nearly 10-13 Kts above 10,000 feet which is better than most.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, the range in Air Nautical Mile per Gallon does not
>>>>> increase it decreases from about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Europa drag goes up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root for the
>>>>> trigear.The mono is much better at still basically a square root
>>>>> curve.More horsepower doesnt give me impressive efficiency or speed.
>>>>>
>>>>> The 914 fits easily in the Europa XS, will cool, accepts a
>>>>> constant speed prop without issue or added extensions, has a
>>>>> reasonable fuel burn and will get you to 10,000 feet in about
>>>>> 11-13 minutes in a cruise climb.I can put out 70 to 95 horsepower
>>>>> continuous for cruise (typically 140-145 for a trigear) or max
>>>>> speed.Both the 912S/iS and Big Bore require the same octane fuel
>>>>> as the 914 so no advantage.The 914 turbo takes care of most of the
>>>>> issues with density altitude, it allows the Bing to work ideally
>>>>> from cruise to max continuous from the surface to service ceiling
>>>>> (which is well above 25,000 which is our human physiological limit
>>>>> without cabin pressurization).We know how to maintain it, the TCU
>>>>> has been modified and I can setup, troubleshoot or simply run a
>>>>> data dump from my laptop running Windows 7 through 10 without a
>>>>> special dongle.I dont have Windows 11 yet, but it should work
>>>>> also.Carbs are easy to balance, and the installation manual is
>>>>> easy to follow.Always follow the engine installation manual in
>>>>> conjunction with the airframe firewall forward manual .
>>>>>
>>>>> The 915 was never designed to fit a standard Rotax engine mount
>>>>> and does not fit most experimental aircraft firewall
>>>>> forwards.Extensive work is necessary to retrofit the 915 to a
>>>>> 912/914 airframe.The 915 is unmaintainable but for plugs and oil
>>>>> change without a buds system for the average owner to tell you
>>>>> what its doing but the troubleshooting manual is a bit
>>>>> sparce.Much study and patience is needed as the 915 goes through
>>>>> its teething issues.It runs lean on the ground like the 912iS and
>>>>> will overheat easily during an extended taxi out.Automatic systems
>>>>> means you the pilot lose control.Many 912iS owners hate the power
>>>>> drop off and find economy only comes through lower power.They have
>>>>> found fuel burn is the same for the same speed after an engine
>>>>> change from the S to the iS.The 915 has a similar issue with the
>>>>> power requirements.It is not like hopping into your BMW tubo and
>>>>> everything works.It is still like the 1980s first gen fuel
>>>>> injection and turbo mods.Today it all works flawlessly in our
>>>>> autos, but with larger cooling requirements and components taking
>>>>> up more space under the hood.The 915 is not quite a plug and play
>>>>> engine electrically either.Look at Sling and their learning
>>>>> curve.The 4 place needs 140-150 HP.The two place not so much.Guys
>>>>> are looking hard at the difference.
>>>>>
>>>>> In summary, the Europa was designed for about 100HP engines of
>>>>> light weight.It is fast and efficient for a 100HP 500 pound
>>>>> payload airplane.More weight makes the induced drag go up.The mono
>>>>> airframe was not designed to go faster than about 170 KTAS at
>>>>> 20,000 feet at an empty weight of 900 pounds.If you go above 900
>>>>> pounds empty weight, the plane gets sluggish, speed drops and
>>>>> range is decreased.In the States, a 1000 mile per day range
>>>>> airplane is essential for getting around west of the Mississippi
>>>>> river. For my snow birds coming from Canada to Florida for the
>>>>> winter, they need that range also.Frankly, a bigger engine makes
>>>>> for shorter hops, less payload, and a longer day.More horsepower
>>>>> is not as important as more torque.Torque turns the prop, HP just
>>>>> makes it spin up faster.
>>>>>
>>>>> Keep it light, keep it simple, and it will be a trouble-free steed
>>>>> with stock components.Work on drag reduction and keeping the
>>>>> weight down.Not by slapping more horsepower, weight, complexity,
>>>>> and cost on a very small airframe.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Bud Yerly
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>>>>> <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Pete
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM
>>>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your Europa
>>>>> this week - 08/11/22
>>>>>
>>>>> <mailto:peterz@zutrasoft.com>>
>>>>>
>>>>> .except for the concerns of Edge welded cranks (cracking), and
>>>>> single point of failure (FI).
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> PeteZ
>>>>>
>>>>> > On Nov 10, 2022, at 1:58 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com <mailto:goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> > Brian the Edge Performance engines are worth looking at if forward mass
>>>>> is a concern... the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is said to finally be showing
>>>>> reliability but i would still choose Edge over Jabiru
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> > Read this topic online here:
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D508643%23508643&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DmjfwqvqQBLFoORotf%2FyaLw%2FmFIOZbrmrQPIcMlLUf4%3D&reserved=0
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>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> - The Europa-List Email Forum -
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>
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