if youre looking for the exotic you could of course try the well proven
colombian 912 turbo...
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 06:34 Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
> My experience conversing with Edge=99s principal over the years, fw
iw, is
> that he is chock full of confidence, many good ideas but peppered with so
me
> critical bad ones -which he will not acknowledge, and lets his customers
> =9Cprove him wrong=9D. And some have (ex: cracked/failed weld
ed crank). Too few
> accumulated hours to tease out all that pepper.
>
> Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although Jan even lacks the engineering
> basics).
>
> Difficult to watch.
>
> Cheers,
> PeteZ
>
> On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian Phillips <barp99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out advice below, much
> appreciated, your background knowledge never ceases to amaze me.
>
> You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of doing all the retrofit
> work, along with the weight issues, its just not worth it, and I would
> never finish it. I am still interested in the 912Is, & was thinking about
> the Edge 1484cc big bore kit. Your comments below about some of the US
> based big bore kits has got me thinking again. 10.5:1 CR does seem a litt
le
> high, combined with no detonation detection feedback loop, does sound a b
it
> risky. Edge performance don't play with the Rotax FI software, they suppl
y
> a fuel pressure reg that increases the rail pressure, so the pump/s are
> working harder, again an added risk. Add to that limited operational
> history, makes the 914 look an even better outcome. As you say, 20,000
> compromises flying in close formation.
>
> Cheers,
> Brian Phillips.
>
> On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly wrote:
>
> Pete, as you are most aware and Brian you are learning fast:
>
> Weight is the enemy of an airplane. Especially the Europa, as it is a
> very compact aircraft. If I add 15 horsepower, but it moves the CG
> forward, requires a prop extension and a constant speed prop, the CG is
> going to be somewhere around the spinner. Now we move the battery back,
> run longer heavier cables and as much more to the rear as possible such a
s
> autopilots, ELTs, etc. to counterbalance the nose. The weight just keeps
> going up. The Europa XS is 100 pounds heavier than the equivalent Europa
> Classic even with the XS fuselage module and firewall forward. The 912
> 80 HP is not a spectacular performer but will give 30 ANMPG at low altitu
de
> or with a leaning device at altitudes up to about 10,000 feet. Cruise is
in
> the 120-130 knot range. The 912S raised the cruise about 5 knots more.
The
> 914 doubles the climb rate, ups cruise to at least 140-145 knot range at
> the same 25 ANMPG as the 912S on a tricycle gear aircraft of course. The
> mono is faster and lighter of course.
>
>
> As I learned on modifying the 914 to fuel injection. Customers moved the
> boost up to get more power but complained it burned more fuel. The only
> advantage was more power with less reliability. Fuel burn was basically
> the same at 31 inches and 5000 RPM. So, what did I gain? Slightly more
> power for climb but more heat to dissipate, a bigger radiator and shallow
> climb was necessary to cool. BTU requirements are the same *for the same
> amount of power* at the same fuel air ratio and varies little with
> displacement. Aircraft engines run at constant RPMs like a marine engine
s,
> so a carb is just as good as fuel injection except for altitude performan
ce
> of a normally aspirated engine with no leaning. The Bing stops leaning
> after about 3500 feet in the normally aspirated engine. So, an after
> market leaning system is necessary for the high altitude flyers to
> improve fuel efficiency of the 912/912S. The Rotax 914 is ideal for
> higher altitude operations and frankly ideal for the Europa but at a high
er
> cost. I believe the 914 totally transformed the Europa into a great
> airplane. Reliability of the 914 is now as good as the 912S but as we all
> know, there are techniques and inspections required to keep it running li
ke
> new.
>
>
> Normally a 912 through the 914 will go 1000 hours with only carb
> maintenance/oil changes. Overspeed of the engine is an issue many ignore
.
> The valves can and do contact the piston if oversped. Prop strikes are
> ignored also by many STOL operators and taildragger/mono.
>
> I do a top overhaul at about 500-600 hours (gearbox, clean up the valves,
> inspect the rings/cylinders) and press on. Repeat at 1000 hours and the
> engine is good to 1500 hours. The cleanup of the valves restores
> compression to like new or better than new and is really a surprise when
a
> 914 burps after only about 5 blades of rotation.
>
>
> I have no experience with the latest Edge Performance engines, but I do
> with the so called "Big Bore" engines done here in the States some years
> ago. They do put out more power. But for how long? Over the years the
> stock Rotax 100 HP 912S (especially the new blocks) last and last. Most
> of the Big Bores were back in after as short as 200 hours. But we have
> many cowboys here in the States that just want more power but won't pay f
or
> it to get power *and reliability*. I was around for the first of these
> Big Bore mods. As Edge Performance has found out, the crank shaft, and
> many other formally robust Rotax parts are now under more stress and
> required "upgrade". This costs money. My hats off to them, as they have
> at least backed their engines. In their defense, some of our =9Cco
wboys=9D
> here in the States are running regular car fuel. This causes detonation
> for sure. I can=99t fix stupid!
>
>
> If you need more power keep in mind in general you will need more gas,
> gain weight, reduce reliability, increase inspection requirements, requir
e
> greater cooling mass, and of course add cost. An airplane is 20,000
> compromises flying in close formation. If you change one thing, you
> affect 20 others. Choose wisely.
>
>
> Example: Charts are scare still for the 915.
>
> 5000 RPM wide open throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP (10-20 more than the 91
4
> depending on MP and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.
>
> A 20 HP increase on N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise speed increase of
> nearly 10-13 Kts above 10,000 feet which is better than most.
>
> However, the range in Air Nautical Mile per Gallon does not increase it
> decreases from about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.
>
>
> The Europa drag goes up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root for the trigear.
The
> mono is much better at still basically a square root curve. More
> horsepower doesn=99t give me impressive efficiency or speed.
>
>
> The 914 fits easily in the Europa XS, will cool, accepts a constant speed
> prop without issue or added extensions, has a reasonable fuel burn and
> will get you to 10,000 feet in about 11-13 minutes in a cruise climb. I
> can put out 70 to 95 horsepower continuous for cruise (typically 140-145
> for a trigear) or max speed. Both the 912S/iS and Big Bore require the
> same octane fuel as the 914 so no advantage. The 914 turbo takes care of
> most of the issues with density altitude, it allows the Bing to work
> ideally from cruise to max continuous from the surface to service ceiling
> (which is well above 25,000 which is our human physiological limit withou
t
> cabin pressurization). We know how to maintain it, the TCU has been
> modified and I can setup, troubleshoot or simply run a data dump from my
> laptop running Windows 7 through 10 without a special dongle. I don
=99t
> have Windows 11 yet, but it should work also. Carbs are easy to balance,
> and the installation manual is easy to follow. Always follow the engine
> installation manual in conjunction with the airframe firewall forward
> manual .
>
>
> The 915 was never designed to fit a standard Rotax engine mount and does
> not fit most experimental aircraft firewall forwards. Extensive work is
> necessary to retrofit the 915 to a 912/914 airframe. The 915 is
> unmaintainable but for plugs and oil change without a =9Cbuds
=9D system for the
> average owner to tell you what it=99s doing but the troubleshooting
manual is
> a bit sparce. Much study and patience is needed as the 915 goes through
> its teething issues. It runs lean on the ground like the 912iS and will
> overheat easily during an extended taxi out. Automatic systems means you
> the pilot lose control. Many 912iS owners hate the power drop off and
> find economy only comes through lower power. They have found fuel burn
> is the same for the same speed after an engine change from the S to the i
S.
> The 915 has a similar issue with the power requirements. It is not like
> hopping into your BMW tubo and everything works. It is still like the
> 1980=99s first gen fuel injection and turbo mods. Today it all wor
ks
> flawlessly in our autos, but with larger cooling requirements and
> components taking up more space under the hood. The 915 is not quite a
> plug and play engine electrically either. Look at Sling and their
> learning curve. The 4 place needs 140-150 HP. The two place not so much
.
> Guys are looking hard at the difference.
>
>
> In summary, the Europa was designed for about 100HP engines of light
> weight. It is fast and efficient for a 100HP 500 pound payload airplane.
> More weight makes the induced drag go up. The mono airframe was not
> designed to go faster than about 170 KTAS at 20,000 feet at an empty weig
ht
> of 900 pounds. If you go above 900 pounds empty weight, the plane gets
> sluggish, speed drops and range is decreased. In the States, a 1000 mile
> per day range airplane is essential for getting around west of the
> Mississippi river. For my snow birds coming from Canada to Florida for
> the winter, they need that range also. Frankly, a bigger engine makes
> for shorter hops, less payload, and a longer day. More horsepower is
> not as important as more torque. Torque turns the prop, HP just makes it
> spin up faster.
>
>
> Keep it light, keep it simple, and it will be a trouble-free steed with
> stock components. Work on drag reduction and keeping the weight down. N
ot
> by slapping more horsepower, weight, complexity, and cost on a very small
> airframe.
>
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Bud Yerly
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>
> <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Pete
> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week
-
> 08/11/22
>
>
> .except for the concerns of Edge welded cranks (cracking), and s
ingle
> point of failure (FI).
>
> Cheers,
>
> PeteZ
>
>
> > On Nov 10, 2022, at 1:58 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>
>
> >
>
> > Brian the Edge Performance engines are worth looking at if forward mass
> is a concern... the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is said to finally be showing
> reliability but i would still choose Edge over Jabiru
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Read this topic online here:
>
> >
>
> >
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