Thanks for that Pete, good to know. As you say, too few accumulated
hours to build reliable predictability. At least the big bore kit does
not need any changes to crank, which is essentially the same as the 914
with the same output. The lighter than standard pistons may even reduce
crank stresses.
I did look at the Viking options, I could be wrong but I seem to
remember belt drive issues, recessed valves & delivery issues. I believe
the crank fillets are smaller on auto engines compared to A/C engines,
and with the 100% duty factor can cause cracks, not sure if this applies
to the suby though. I do have an EJ25 in my road car, 200K miles, no
problems, great engine.
William, your Columbian turbo does interest me, I remember you used a
Mitsubishi turbo. Do you use it to normalize or do you actually add a
bit more boost in?
Cheers,
Brian Phillips.
On 11/11/2022 10:30 pm, Pete wrote:
> My experience conversing with Edges principal over the years, fwiw,
> is that he is chock full of confidence, many good ideas but peppered
> with some critical bad ones -which he will not acknowledge, and lets
> his customers prove him wrong. And some have (ex: cracked/failed
> welded crank). Too few accumulated hours to tease out all that pepper.
>
> Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although Jan even lacks the
> engineering basics).
>
> Difficult to watch.
>
> Cheers,
> PeteZ
>
>> On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian Phillips <barp99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out advice below, much
>> appreciated, your background knowledge never ceases to amaze me.
>>
>> You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of doing all the
>> retrofit work, along with the weight issues, its just not worth it,
>> and I would never finish it. I am still interested in the 912Is, &
>> was thinking about the Edge 1484cc big bore kit. Your comments below
>> about some of the US based big bore kits has got me thinking again.
>> 10.5:1 CR does seem a little high, combined with no detonation
>> detection feedback loop, does sound a bit risky. Edge performance
>> don't play with the Rotax FI software, they supply a fuel pressure
>> reg that increases the rail pressure, so the pump/s are working
>> harder, again an added risk. Add to that limited operational history,
>> makes the 914 look an even better outcome. As you say, 20,000
>> compromises flying in close formation.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Brian Phillips.
>>
>> On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly wrote:
>>>
>>> Pete, as you are most aware and Brian you are learning fast:
>>>
>>> Weight is the enemy of an airplane.Especially the Europa, as it is a
>>> very compact aircraft.If I add 15 horsepower, but it moves the CG
>>> forward, requires a prop extension and a constant speed prop, the CG
>>> is going to be somewhere around the spinner.Now we move the battery
>>> back, run longer heavier cables and as much more to the rear as
>>> possible such as autopilots, ELTs, etc. to counterbalance the nose.
>>> The weight just keeps going up. The Europa XS is 100 pounds heavier
>>> than the equivalent Europa Classic even with the XS fuselage module
>>> and firewall forward.The 912 80 HP is not a spectacular performer
>>> but will give 30 ANMPG at low altitude or with a leaning device at
>>> altitudes up to about 10,000 feet. Cruise is in the 120-130 knot
>>> range.The 912S raised the cruise about 5 knots more.The 914 doubles
>>> the climb rate, ups cruise to at least 140-145 knot range at the
>>> same 25 ANMPG as the 912S on a tricycle gear aircraft of course.The
>>> mono is faster and lighter of course.
>>>
>>> As I learned on modifying the 914 to fuel injection.Customers moved
>>> the boost up to get more power but complained it burned more
>>> fuel.The only advantage was more power with less reliability.Fuel
>>> burn was basically the same at 31 inches and 5000 RPM.So, what did I
>>> gain?Slightly more power for climb but more heat to dissipate, a
>>> bigger radiator and shallow climb was necessary to cool.BTU
>>> requirements are the same *for the same amount of power* at the same
>>> fuel air ratio and varies little with displacement.Aircraft engines
>>> run at constant RPMs like a marine engines, so a carb is just as
>>> good as fuel injection except for altitude performance of a normally
>>> aspirated engine with no leaning.The Bing stops leaning after about
>>> 3500 feet in the normally aspirated engine.So, an after market
>>> leaning system is necessary for the high altitude flyers to improve
>>> fuel efficiency of the 912/912S.The Rotax 914 is ideal for higher
>>> altitude operations and frankly ideal for the Europa but at a higher
>>> cost. I believe the 914 totally transformed the Europa into a great
>>> airplane. Reliability of the 914 is now as good as the 912S but as
>>> we all know, there are techniques and inspections required to keep
>>> it running like new.
>>>
>>> Normally a 912 through the 914 will go 1000 hours with only carb
>>> maintenance/oil changes.Overspeed of the engine is an issue many
>>> ignore.The valves can and do contact the piston if oversped.Prop
>>> strikes are ignored also by many STOL operators and taildragger/mono.
>>>
>>> I do a top overhaul at about 500-600 hours (gearbox, clean up the
>>> valves, inspect the rings/cylinders) and press on.Repeat at 1000
>>> hours and the engine is good to 1500 hours.The cleanup of the valves
>>> restores compression to like new or better than new and is really a
>>> surprise when a 914 burps after only about 5 blades of rotation.
>>>
>>> I have no experience with the latest Edge Performance engines, but I
>>> do with the so called "Big Bore" engines done here in the States
>>> some years ago.They do put out more power.But for how long?Over the
>>> years the stock Rotax 100 HP 912S (especially the new blocks) last
>>> and last.Most of the Big Bores were back in after as short as 200
>>> hours.But we have many cowboys here in the States that just want
>>> more power but won't pay for it to get power _and reliability_.I was
>>> around for the first of these Big Bore mods.As Edge Performance has
>>> found out, the crank shaft, and many other formally robust Rotax
>>> parts are now under more stress and required "upgrade".This costs
>>> money.My hats off to them, as they have at least backed their
>>> engines.In their defense, some of our cowboys here in the States
>>> are running regular car fuel. This causes detonation for sure. I
>>> cant fix stupid!
>>>
>>> If you need more power keep in mind in general you will need more
>>> gas, gain weight, reduce reliability, increase inspection
>>> requirements, require greater cooling mass, and of course add
>>> cost.An airplane is 20,000 compromises flying in close formation.If
>>> you change one thing, you affect 20 others.Choose wisely.
>>>
>>> Example:Charts are scare still for the 915.
>>>
>>> 5000 RPM wide open throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP (10-20 more than
>>> the 914 depending on MP and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.
>>>
>>> A 20 HP increase on N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise speed increase
>>> of nearly 10-13 Kts above 10,000 feet which is better than most.
>>>
>>> However, the range in Air Nautical Mile per Gallon does not increase
>>> it decreases from about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.
>>>
>>> The Europa drag goes up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root for the
>>> trigear.The mono is much better at still basically a square root
>>> curve.More horsepower doesnt give me impressive efficiency or speed.
>>>
>>> The 914 fits easily in the Europa XS, will cool, accepts a constant
>>> speed prop without issue or added extensions, has a reasonable fuel
>>> burn and will get you to 10,000 feet in about 11-13 minutes in a
>>> cruise climb.I can put out 70 to 95 horsepower continuous for cruise
>>> (typically 140-145 for a trigear) or max speed.Both the 912S/iS and
>>> Big Bore require the same octane fuel as the 914 so no advantage.The
>>> 914 turbo takes care of most of the issues with density altitude, it
>>> allows the Bing to work ideally from cruise to max continuous from
>>> the surface to service ceiling (which is well above 25,000 which is
>>> our human physiological limit without cabin pressurization).We know
>>> how to maintain it, the TCU has been modified and I can setup,
>>> troubleshoot or simply run a data dump from my laptop running
>>> Windows 7 through 10 without a special dongle.I dont have Windows
>>> 11 yet, but it should work also.Carbs are easy to balance, and the
>>> installation manual is easy to follow.Always follow the engine
>>> installation manual in conjunction with the airframe firewall
>>> forward manual .
>>>
>>> The 915 was never designed to fit a standard Rotax engine mount and
>>> does not fit most experimental aircraft firewall forwards.Extensive
>>> work is necessary to retrofit the 915 to a 912/914 airframe.The 915
>>> is unmaintainable but for plugs and oil change without a buds
>>> system for the average owner to tell you what its doing but the
>>> troubleshooting manual is a bit sparce.Much study and patience is
>>> needed as the 915 goes through its teething issues.It runs lean on
>>> the ground like the 912iS and will overheat easily during an
>>> extended taxi out.Automatic systems means you the pilot lose
>>> control.Many 912iS owners hate the power drop off and find economy
>>> only comes through lower power.They have found fuel burn is the same
>>> for the same speed after an engine change from the S to the iS.The
>>> 915 has a similar issue with the power requirements.It is not like
>>> hopping into your BMW tubo and everything works.It is still like the
>>> 1980s first gen fuel injection and turbo mods.Today it all works
>>> flawlessly in our autos, but with larger cooling requirements and
>>> components taking up more space under the hood.The 915 is not quite
>>> a plug and play engine electrically either.Look at Sling and their
>>> learning curve.The 4 place needs 140-150 HP.The two place not so
>>> much.Guys are looking hard at the difference.
>>>
>>> In summary, the Europa was designed for about 100HP engines of light
>>> weight.It is fast and efficient for a 100HP 500 pound payload
>>> airplane.More weight makes the induced drag go up.The mono airframe
>>> was not designed to go faster than about 170 KTAS at 20,000 feet at
>>> an empty weight of 900 pounds.If you go above 900 pounds empty
>>> weight, the plane gets sluggish, speed drops and range is
>>> decreased.In the States, a 1000 mile per day range airplane is
>>> essential for getting around west of the Mississippi river. For my
>>> snow birds coming from Canada to Florida for the winter, they need
>>> that range also.Frankly, a bigger engine makes for shorter hops,
>>> less payload, and a longer day.More horsepower is not as important
>>> as more torque.Torque turns the prop, HP just makes it spin up faster.
>>>
>>> Keep it light, keep it simple, and it will be a trouble-free steed
>>> with stock components.Work on drag reduction and keeping the weight
>>> down.Not by slapping more horsepower, weight, complexity, and cost
>>> on a very small airframe.
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Bud Yerly
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>>> <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Pete
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM
>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your Europa this
>>> week - 08/11/22
>>>
>>> <mailto:peterz@zutrasoft.com>>
>>>
>>> .except for the concerns of Edge welded cranks (cracking), and
>>> single point of failure (FI).
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> PeteZ
>>>
>>> > On Nov 10, 2022, at 1:58 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com <mailto:goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>>
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > Brian the Edge Performance engines are worth looking at if forward mass is
a
>>> concern... the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is said to finally be showing
>>> reliability but i would still choose Edge over Jabiru
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> >
>>>
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>>> >
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>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
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>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
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