Thanks for that Will. Clearly you know what you are doing as you have
been running it since 2006. Can I ask, why do you need to change the
gearbox ratio?
Once you installed the turbo system, did you have to adjust or replace
it to get it to absorb the power available at higher altitudes?
Cheers,
Brian Phillips.
On 13/11/2022 12:33 am, William Daniell wrote:
> I use up to 36 although lots of people in Colombia go up to 40. So
> yes pretty much the same boost as a 914.
>
> If you use a stock 912 you have to add the turbo system and airbox
> exhaust etc as you would expect. And also the oil system to feed the
> turbo none of which is unexpected. A bigger main jet is normal.
> However the gochta is that you need to change the gearbox ratio and I
> put in a slipper clutch. All of this can actually be done in a day
> (the exhaust and airbox are made beforehand.)
>
> I have a manual waste gate in this engine but in the previous one I
> had a simple wastegate controller like a car
>
> I flown with this engine since 2006 never had an issue.
>
> The turbo is from a Renault diesel van - made by mitisubishi
>
> Nitrile gaskets on the carbs are necessary otherwise they suck air at
> altitude.
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 23:16 Brian Phillips <barp99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks for that Pete, good to know. As you say, too few
> accumulated hours to build reliable predictability. At least the
> big bore kit does not need any changes to crank, which is
> essentially the same as the 914 with the same output. The lighter
> than standard pistons may even reduce crank stresses.
>
> I did look at the Viking options, I could be wrong but I seem to
> remember belt drive issues, recessed valves & delivery issues. I
> believe the crank fillets are smaller on auto engines compared to
> A/C engines, and with the 100% duty factor can cause cracks, not
> sure if this applies to the suby though. I do have an EJ25 in my
> road car, 200K miles, no problems, great engine.
>
> William, your Columbian turbo does interest me, I remember you
> used a Mitsubishi turbo. Do you use it to normalize or do you
> actually add a bit more boost in?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Brian Phillips.
>
> On 11/11/2022 10:30 pm, Pete wrote:
>> My experience conversing with Edges principal over the years,
>> fwiw, is that he is chock full of confidence, many good ideas but
>> peppered with some critical bad ones -which he will not
>> acknowledge, and lets his customers prove him wrong. And some
>> have (ex: cracked/failed welded crank). Too few accumulated hours
>> to tease out all that pepper.
>>
>> Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although Jan even lacks the
>> engineering basics).
>>
>> Difficult to watch.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> PeteZ
>>
>>> On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian Phillips <barp99@gmail.com>
>>> <mailto:barp99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out advice below,
>>> much appreciated, your background knowledge never ceases to
>>> amaze me.
>>>
>>> You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of doing all the
>>> retrofit work, along with the weight issues, its just not worth
>>> it, and I would never finish it. I am still interested in the
>>> 912Is, & was thinking about the Edge 1484cc big bore kit. Your
>>> comments below about some of the US based big bore kits has got
>>> me thinking again. 10.5:1 CR does seem a little high, combined
>>> with no detonation detection feedback loop, does sound a bit
>>> risky. Edge performance don't play with the Rotax FI software,
>>> they supply a fuel pressure reg that increases the rail
>>> pressure, so the pump/s are working harder, again an added risk.
>>> Add to that limited operational history, makes the 914 look an
>>> even better outcome. As you say, 20,000 compromises flying in
>>> close formation.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Brian Phillips.
>>>
>>> On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Pete, as you are most aware and Brian you are learning fast:
>>>>
>>>> Weight is the enemy of an airplane.Especially the Europa, as it
>>>> is a very compact aircraft.If I add 15 horsepower, but it moves
>>>> the CG forward, requires a prop extension and a constant speed
>>>> prop, the CG is going to be somewhere around the spinner.Now we
>>>> move the battery back, run longer heavier cables and as much
>>>> more to the rear as possible such as autopilots, ELTs, etc. to
>>>> counterbalance the nose. The weight just keeps going up. The
>>>> Europa XS is 100 pounds heavier than the equivalent Europa
>>>> Classic even with the XS fuselage module and firewall
>>>> forward.The 912 80 HP is not a spectacular performer but will
>>>> give 30 ANMPG at low altitude or with a leaning device at
>>>> altitudes up to about 10,000 feet. Cruise is in the 120-130
>>>> knot range.The 912S raised the cruise about 5 knots more.The
>>>> 914 doubles the climb rate, ups cruise to at least 140-145 knot
>>>> range at the same 25 ANMPG as the 912S on a tricycle gear
>>>> aircraft of course.The mono is faster and lighter of course.
>>>>
>>>> As I learned on modifying the 914 to fuel injection.Customers
>>>> moved the boost up to get more power but complained it burned
>>>> more fuel.The only advantage was more power with less
>>>> reliability.Fuel burn was basically the same at 31 inches and
>>>> 5000 RPM.So, what did I gain?Slightly more power for climb but
>>>> more heat to dissipate, a bigger radiator and shallow climb was
>>>> necessary to cool.BTU requirements are the same *for the same
>>>> amount of power* at the same fuel air ratio and varies little
>>>> with displacement.Aircraft engines run at constant RPMs like a
>>>> marine engines, so a carb is just as good as fuel injection
>>>> except for altitude performance of a normally aspirated engine
>>>> with no leaning.The Bing stops leaning after about 3500 feet in
>>>> the normally aspirated engine.So, an after market leaning
>>>> system is necessary for the high altitude flyers to improve
>>>> fuel efficiency of the 912/912S.The Rotax 914 is ideal for
>>>> higher altitude operations and frankly ideal for the Europa but
>>>> at a higher cost. I believe the 914 totally transformed the
>>>> Europa into a great airplane. Reliability of the 914 is now as
>>>> good as the 912S but as we all know, there are techniques and
>>>> inspections required to keep it running like new.
>>>>
>>>> Normally a 912 through the 914 will go 1000 hours with only
>>>> carb maintenance/oil changes.Overspeed of the engine is an
>>>> issue many ignore.The valves can and do contact the piston if
>>>> oversped.Prop strikes are ignored also by many STOL operators
>>>> and taildragger/mono.
>>>>
>>>> I do a top overhaul at about 500-600 hours (gearbox, clean up
>>>> the valves, inspect the rings/cylinders) and press on.Repeat at
>>>> 1000 hours and the engine is good to 1500 hours.The cleanup of
>>>> the valves restores compression to like new or better than new
>>>> and is really a surprise when a 914 burps after only about 5
>>>> blades of rotation.
>>>>
>>>> I have no experience with the latest Edge Performance engines,
>>>> but I do with the so called "Big Bore" engines done here in the
>>>> States some years ago.They do put out more power.But for how
>>>> long?Over the years the stock Rotax 100 HP 912S (especially the
>>>> new blocks) last and last.Most of the Big Bores were back in
>>>> after as short as 200 hours.But we have many cowboys here in
>>>> the States that just want more power but won't pay for it to
>>>> get power _and reliability_.I was around for the first of these
>>>> Big Bore mods.As Edge Performance has found out, the crank
>>>> shaft, and many other formally robust Rotax parts are now under
>>>> more stress and required "upgrade".This costs money.My hats off
>>>> to them, as they have at least backed their engines.In their
>>>> defense, some of our cowboys here in the States are running
>>>> regular car fuel. This causes detonation for sure. I cant fix
>>>> stupid!
>>>>
>>>> If you need more power keep in mind in general you will need
>>>> more gas, gain weight, reduce reliability, increase inspection
>>>> requirements, require greater cooling mass, and of course add
>>>> cost.An airplane is 20,000 compromises flying in close
>>>> formation.If you change one thing, you affect 20 others.Choose
>>>> wisely.
>>>>
>>>> Example:Charts are scare still for the 915.
>>>>
>>>> 5000 RPM wide open throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP (10-20 more
>>>> than the 914 depending on MP and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.
>>>>
>>>> A 20 HP increase on N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise speed
>>>> increase of nearly 10-13 Kts above 10,000 feet which is better
>>>> than most.
>>>>
>>>> However, the range in Air Nautical Mile per Gallon does not
>>>> increase it decreases from about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.
>>>>
>>>> The Europa drag goes up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root for the
>>>> trigear.The mono is much better at still basically a square
>>>> root curve.More horsepower doesnt give me impressive
>>>> efficiency or speed.
>>>>
>>>> The 914 fits easily in the Europa XS, will cool, accepts a
>>>> constant speed prop without issue or added extensions, has a
>>>> reasonable fuel burn and will get you to 10,000 feet in about
>>>> 11-13 minutes in a cruise climb.I can put out 70 to 95
>>>> horsepower continuous for cruise (typically 140-145 for a
>>>> trigear) or max speed.Both the 912S/iS and Big Bore require the
>>>> same octane fuel as the 914 so no advantage.The 914 turbo takes
>>>> care of most of the issues with density altitude, it allows the
>>>> Bing to work ideally from cruise to max continuous from the
>>>> surface to service ceiling (which is well above 25,000 which is
>>>> our human physiological limit without cabin pressurization).We
>>>> know how to maintain it, the TCU has been modified and I can
>>>> setup, troubleshoot or simply run a data dump from my laptop
>>>> running Windows 7 through 10 without a special dongle.I dont
>>>> have Windows 11 yet, but it should work also.Carbs are easy to
>>>> balance, and the installation manual is easy to follow.Always
>>>> follow the engine installation manual in conjunction with the
>>>> airframe firewall forward manual .
>>>>
>>>> The 915 was never designed to fit a standard Rotax engine mount
>>>> and does not fit most experimental aircraft firewall
>>>> forwards.Extensive work is necessary to retrofit the 915 to a
>>>> 912/914 airframe.The 915 is unmaintainable but for plugs and
>>>> oil change without a buds system for the average owner to
>>>> tell you what its doing but the troubleshooting manual is a
>>>> bit sparce.Much study and patience is needed as the 915 goes
>>>> through its teething issues.It runs lean on the ground like the
>>>> 912iS and will overheat easily during an extended taxi
>>>> out.Automatic systems means you the pilot lose control.Many
>>>> 912iS owners hate the power drop off and find economy only
>>>> comes through lower power.They have found fuel burn is the same
>>>> for the same speed after an engine change from the S to the
>>>> iS.The 915 has a similar issue with the power requirements.It
>>>> is not like hopping into your BMW tubo and everything works.It
>>>> is still like the 1980s first gen fuel injection and turbo
>>>> mods.Today it all works flawlessly in our autos, but with
>>>> larger cooling requirements and components taking up more space
>>>> under the hood.The 915 is not quite a plug and play engine
>>>> electrically either.Look at Sling and their learning curve.The
>>>> 4 place needs 140-150 HP.The two place not so much.Guys are
>>>> looking hard at the difference.
>>>>
>>>> In summary, the Europa was designed for about 100HP engines of
>>>> light weight.It is fast and efficient for a 100HP 500 pound
>>>> payload airplane.More weight makes the induced drag go up.The
>>>> mono airframe was not designed to go faster than about 170 KTAS
>>>> at 20,000 feet at an empty weight of 900 pounds.If you go above
>>>> 900 pounds empty weight, the plane gets sluggish, speed drops
>>>> and range is decreased.In the States, a 1000 mile per day range
>>>> airplane is essential for getting around west of the
>>>> Mississippi river. For my snow birds coming from Canada to
>>>> Florida for the winter, they need that range also.Frankly, a
>>>> bigger engine makes for shorter hops, less payload, and a
>>>> longer day.More horsepower is not as important as more
>>>> torque.Torque turns the prop, HP just makes it spin up faster.
>>>>
>>>> Keep it light, keep it simple, and it will be a trouble-free
>>>> steed with stock components.Work on drag reduction and keeping
>>>> the weight down.Not by slapping more horsepower, weight,
>>>> complexity, and cost on a very small airframe.
>>>>
>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Bud Yerly
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>>>> <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>
>>>> <mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Pete
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM
>>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your Europa
>>>> this week - 08/11/22
>>>>
>>>> <mailto:peterz@zutrasoft.com>>
>>>>
>>>> .except for the concerns of Edge welded cranks (cracking), and
>>>> single point of failure (FI).
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> PeteZ
>>>>
>>>> > On Nov 10, 2022, at 1:58 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>>
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > Brian the Edge Performance engines are worth looking at if forward
>>>> mass is a concern... the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is said to finally be
>>>> showing reliability but i would still choose Edge over Jabiru
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
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>>>
>
> --
> William Daniell
> LONGPORT
> +1 786 878 0246
|