fwiw, I have also gone to the EarthX - which spins up the small classic
starter on the 912S like a champ - crazy high rpm, and I feed that with the
BandC regulator. The ignitions were the best upgrade on my 912S (and also
most cost effective) - Ignitec's remote mounted, with ATDC set for start.
Smooth as silk.
https://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/bikes/rotax/rotax%20912%20and%20914/rota
x%20912%20and%20914.htm
It's still my position that the high compression reverse torque pulses of
the S are the bane of gearbox longevity, with resonance-prone heavy WD
props as instrumented and demonstrated on my airframe at least. :-)
Cheers,
PeteZ
On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 11:16 AM Bud Yerly <budyerly@msn.com> wrote:
> Pete,
>
> You have every right to be upset with the 912S.
>
> Before about 2005 I wouldn't put one on an airplane. It was just not
> ready for prime time.
>
> High compression, fixed ignition and a low torque starter was a bad
> combination. Systems issues such as, fixed ignition, poor auto gas
> choices by customers, exhaust systems that couldn't stand up to the harsh
> vibration so they cracked, shifted, leaked, springs broke off and frankly
> it was scary to start and shut down as it would kick back violently. It
> had a harsh area around 3500 RPM that could not be tuned out. As you
> found in some engines by going to a light prop, the engine seemed to be
> smoother. But there is more to the story.
>
>
> The early 912S would rather run backwards on start than forward. The
> starter wouldn't even hit 300 RPM in the cold due to its low torque, spra
g
> clutches were destroyed ( give me a Bendix any day) and gear boxes
> clattered because of bad timing and valve overlap choices (my thoughts
> anyway). I wouldn't put one on a plane unless the owner insisted.
>
>
> I could get one to idle and run smoothly but min idle was 1800. At start
> when cold you had to run at 2200-2500 until warm. If you tried to tune
> down to 1600 or so the one or more cylinders would actually pre-ignite du
e
> to the timing and shake worse than any hotrod engine as one or more
> cylinder would fire well before TDC at idle. Anyone trying to start one
> had to use one ignition, a fully charged battery, and new 92+ octane fuel
> to have a chance of it not running backwards or encountering violent
> kickback. Bearings and flanges inside supporting the crank shaft were
> failing, and engine short blocks were trashed. Carbs were not balancing
> well and engine shaking actually wore out the pistons in the carb bodies.
> Many had to throw their carbs away and get a new matched set.
>
>
> Upset customers began to curse their engine after having to buy new
> exhausts, new ignition systems (soft start), higher torque starters, and
> sometimes two new carburetors. Costing them nearly 1/3 the cost of the
> original engine. Many blamed the prop mass (as did Rotax as we all know
> it couldn't possibly be their Teutonic engineering) but frankly it was th
e
> engine. It needed work.
>
>
> By roughly 2005 ignition and starting woes were mostly corrected, but CKT
> had to make extensive changes to their exhaust systems to get a system
> robust enough to hold up to the vibration, and not leak or crack. Spring
s
> were a problem until about 2010 when they made their own stainless spring
s
> on nice clean mandrels. Rotax made slight changes to the engine that
> escaped most of us (Teutonic secrecy). Finally, Rotax beefed up the
> bearing supports, flanges and the through bolt bosses were made larger
> clearing the case cracking and the cocked bearing / high friction issues.
> It still has an issue of higher vibrations due to the compression increas
e
> and fixed ignition though. At least the more robust block helped keep it
> more reliable.
>
>
> Today the new 912S is tolerable. But it was a long messy period. Rotax
> blamed the props were too heavy, bad gas, owner servicing and running
> issues in the gearbox clatter area, but frankly the engine was rushed int
o
> production without full testing in my opinion.
>
>
> 912 (80HP) owners simply shrugged their shoulders at the 912S owners and
> soldiered on with their engine running and operating just fine although l
ow
> octane and cold winter starts were tough. The Classic Europa FWF would
> not accept the larger high torque starters to help them start in the cold
.
> However, everything was and is smoother on the low compression 80 HP
> engine. Of course, it can only swing a tapered blade prop of no more
> than 64 inches so most folks in the States wouldn't use it. My Canadian
> friends put long tapered blade Warp Drive props on the 80 HP engine but h
ad
> to pitch it so low that speed was disgusting, however takeoff was OK so
> small light floatplanes got by with it.
>
>
> The early 914 had some of the same issues. By 2005 the 914 became quite
> trouble free but you had to know the systems. Once you learned the
> tricks and tips, it ran and still runs great. New carbs, new updated
> TCU, and a high torque starter greatly aided my engine. At 500 hours I
> had an overspeed (my fault) and had Lockwood open up mine and do a top
> overhaul and gearbox rebuild. It still looks like a new engine inside
> and meets specifications. 4 valves were impacted, and I insisted they be
> changed and all of them lapped and the compressions are like new. But it
> cost about $3300 to have the cylinders pulled, heads and valves cleaned u
p
> and the gearbox rebuilt. Not bad when compared to a Lycoming at 500
> hours. But before that I spent another $3000 over the first 10 years on
> the high torque starter, new TCU, and Carbs. All well worth it.
>
>
> As Walter Hudson (an old AI in our area (award winning builder also))
> always said "You know what keeps an airplane airborne? MONEY!"
>
>
> If you do all the recommended and advisory stuff, like the improved
> ignition, high torque starter, proper carb balance and service and proper
> fuel, it keeps the engine running well. Your opinion is it was the prop,
> but I believe it may have been the combination of updates and repairs to
> the engine that did most of it. Change one thing at a time and then
> evaluate is normal in testing but if the engine, dogs, gearbox, ignition,
> and carb tune are all done at once as well as a prop change, who knows fo
r
> sure. A rough running engine will damage itself and its systems. My
> old timers always prefer a light wood prop as it was always smoother as t
he
> wood absorbs vibration. Metal and carbon don't dampen the vibration as
> well. Hence a static and dynamic balance is necessary with these hard
> props. If the engine is still harsh, it most likely is internal issues.
>
>
> I've never had an issue in 20 years with prop masses below 6000kg/cm on
> any Rotax. I have had and seen Rotax 912S issues due to all the issues
> mentioned above. Once those issues were fixed, I put the original prop
> back on and behold, the engine ran smoothly. Maybe I was just lucky all
> these years.
>
>
> Never over look a bad prop blade. Many folks have brought prop vibration
> issues to my attention. I=99ve found blade fatigue, unmatched blad
es,
> pitch slippage on ground adjustable props, and many that were not
> statically balanced. A prop that is not statically balanced will not
> dynamically balance. I show folks on my website what I do to statically
> balance an Airmaster Warp Drive, Sensenich etc. before I mount it. One
> blade off by a =C2=BC of a degree on a three blade prop puts a lot of
> vibrations at your prop flange as the prop is roughly said =9Ccorks
crewing=9D
> itself through the air. This is frustrating for many owners so they
> change props and frankly they should.
>
>
> I'm glad you are now seeing a light at the end of the tunnel on your
> engine/prop. I know my original 914 had me scratching my head also, but
> now I know what I need to do on *my* engine. I added a light weight prop
> to test and frankly I have no difference in engine behavior on the 914.
It
> just made the nose lighter. A two blade makes oil changes faster as the
> cowl drops off easier on a trigear.
>
>
> Happy Flying,
>
> Bud Yerly
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <
> owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Pete
>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 10:30 PM
>
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your europa this week
-
> 22/12/22
>
>
> Sounds great, but my 500hr gearbox ended up heavily wearing and pocketing
> the dogs, and resonating in cruise (5000-5200rpm, & worse lightly loaded
> below 5k) with my 912s & fixed pitch std europa wide Warp-drive (which i
> measured at 5400 rotational mass, near the upper rotax spec btw), and
> cracking my classic exhaust repeatedly (and who knows what else got beate
n
> up prematurely). Was never an issue in climb or full-beans cruise (needs
> smooth air), with the loaded prop.
>
>
> Result: All new dogs/gearset, much lighter CS e-prop (2300 rotational
> mass), and the engine and airframe are now transformed, and no more crack
ed
> exhaust, and start/stops are instant with zero banging about in the dogs.
>
>
> I hope to now get much more than the 500hrs on that previous (std europa)
> problematic combo. Hoping for TBO. I attribute my issues to the high
> compression 912s + heavy WD (and unkown original builder=99s ops fo
r its
> first 250hrs), and light loading in cruise.
>
>
> As for dynamic balancing, i use the PB40, in flight. I found ground
> dynamic balancing is pretty well useless.
>
>
> Wish i could have had better (and less expensive) luck following your
> general recommendations (which was my assumption and SOP going in).
>
>
> FWIW, YMMV,
>
> Cheers,
>
> PeteZ
>
>
> > On Dec 27, 2022, at 9:47 PM, budyerly@msn.com wrote:
>
> >
>
y@msn.com
> >
>
> >
>
> > Pete, James and everyone else on our Matronics list,
>
> >
>
> > The pdf is attached showing some charts from the Rotax manual.
>
> >
>
> > Short Answer:
>
> > Personally, we are getting worked up over nothing here for most of the
> Europa owners and it may bring up concern that the well maintained
> engine/prop combo are causing harmonic issues. We know it is not an
> issue for most of us. For those who wish to rebuild their engine, modify
> existing engines, produce or use auto converted engines, these are
> informational and thought-provoking conversations on gearboxes and engine
s.
> Let=99s face it, Eggenfeller is still modifying his gearboxes on al
l his
> engines (Honda and others). But for an established aircraft with
> aviation engine/props that dealers recommend, these conversations are not
> productive except with your feet up and having a beer.
>
> >
>
> > I agree, that geared engines do have harmonic issues if operated outsid
e
> the prescribed and tested manufacturers limitations. Where are those
> limits? In the operator=99s manual. Fly within the prop curve lim
its and
> the Rotax 9 series with any reputable prop will perform properly. If an
> engine manufacturer has no performance limitations, stay away from that
> engine as testing is incomplete.
>
> >
>
> > There are no issues with flying the Airmaster, Whirlwind, MT, Hoffman,
> Woodcomp (properly maintained), on the Rotax 9 series engines. Fixed
> pitch props made by reputable companies (the non flexible kind) have no
> issues either (fixed pitch Warp Drive, Whirlwind, Sensenich, Woodcomp hav
e
> no issues, but Kiev and some other thin flexible props are potentially a
> longevity problem.) Unlike the long stroke, over bored Lycoming
> 0-360/390 these engines have bore, stroke, and compression issues which d
o
> in fact cause unfavorable harmonics so some combinations of particular
> props and engine dash numbers to have restricted operation envelopes. T
he
> Rotax does not. Rotax does have recommended RPM/MP settings for various
> power settings and charts giving adequate information on operating
> envelopes.
>
> >
>
> > Long answer for those bored or snowbound:
>
> >
>
> > As for Rotax operational limits:
>
> >
>
> > Most Europa Owners fly with the Airmaster Constant Speed propeller on
> the 914 and frankly from 4000 to 5800 RPM there are no issues from 20-40
> inches of manifold pressure at a constant airspeed. In other words,
> there are no engine/gearbox/prop harmonic problems which will occur but
> you can lug the engine down and cause issues. Go back in the archives
> and look at our conversations on engine vibration. If you have
> vibration, follow those techniques to repair your prop balance, suspensio
n
> or carb issues. I have found that the properly carb balanced Rotax
> engine with a properly static balanced prop and then a proper dynamic
> balance is all we need to have a smooth running Rotax. Many get by with
> a simple static balance but a dynamic balance is always a good idea.
>
> >
>
> > In flight using a portable dynamic balancer (such as a Dynavibe) has
> been used in flight and found to be a better balance as the Europa bounce
s
> around quite a bit on a ground run making the dynamic balance results
> rather chaotic. Many times, I have had to limit the RPM in the ground
> dynamic balance to 4000 RPM to make it flyable.
>
> >
>
> > Back to power and RPM settings.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >> From your Rotax Operators Manual:
>
> > For the 914:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > For the 912S:
>
> >
>
> > My Notes:
>
> > Who flies at only those power settings. Most of us, but not always.
>
> > You can fly a Rotax 9 series at any power setting and RPM up to 5500
> (remember the 5 minute limit above 5500) at virtually any throttle/MP
> setting but listen to the engine for clues on how you are operating.
>
> >
>
> > Downwind airspeed is 4000 RPM and 20-24 inches depending on aircraft
> weight trigear or mono.
>
> > Trigear is higher than a clean mono. That is about 25-30 Horsepower.
Note
> in stabilized flight the prop is loaded so the gearbox does not clatter
> because the prop is pulling. You can loiter forever.
>
> >
>
> > In flight where are the gearbox rattle areas?
>
> > Any throttle settings (power) that allow the prop to unload to where th
e
> prop begins to windmill.
>
> > Also, any power setting or throttle above that prop line RPM in the
> operations charts as you are lugging the engine, in other words the prop
is
> demanding more power due to excessive pitch for the manifold pressure
> (throttle setting) you have set.
>
> >
>
> > First: Pull your headphones off or turn off the ANR and listen to the
> engine and prop. Pete and Area 51 and many others know what I mean. Fra
nkly
> everyone should listen to their airplane, it will talk to you. If you
> descend rapidly with no regard to the sound of the engine you are doing i
t
> wrong. At 140-160 KTS with about =C2=BD throttle, even with a constant s
peed
> prop, the prop is being turned by the airspeed windmilling the prop (RPM
> increases as speed increases and decreases as speed is reduced is your
> visual clue) and once you begin to slow down, you will hit an area where
> the forward speed puts the prop at zero thrust, where the prop can
=99t decide
> whether it is windmilling or pulling. A vibration or clatter is heard or
> felt. The noise of the prop changes also. Get out of that range by
> pulling off more throttle or adding power and pulling the nose up to slow
> down. This action of pulling off the power more to force the prop out of
> the windmilling speed, or reduci!
>
> ng!
>
> > the speed and keeping the power up enough to keep the prop pulling is
> common to most aircraft, even direct drive engine such as the Lycoming.
>
> >
>
> > It isn=99t that hard, but it does require listening and understan
ding that
> there is slop in the gears (which you should note on every preflight) hen
ce
> it is intuitively obvious to the most casual of observers that there will
> be areas where if I am flying at a particular airspeed and note that the
> airspeed is driving the engine RPM more than the throttle, the gearbox wi
ll
> rattle once the two power/airspeeds become equal, therefore one should
> think ahead. Once you slow down, you need to pull the power or that 50%
> throttle you have in there will go through a speed where the unloaded pro
p
> will almost go to a loaded prop (i.e. the engine will be driving the prop
> rather than the wind or equal to it). LEARN FROM IT.
>
> >
>
> > When I and many other salesmen fly with customers, we are in tune to th
e
> demonstrator aircraft/engine/and prop, and we move the throttle as soon a
s
> we hear the prop start to windmill. Yes, you can hear it. That way the
> potential customer never feels this. We=99re not lying or sprinkli
ng fair
> dust on the issue, we just understand and avoid the clack. Once the
> buyer closes the deal, we demonstrate that area.
>
> >
>
> > Second: Regarding Heavy Props.
>
> > There are no REPUTABLE prop manufacturers that recommend props that DO
> NOT meet the rotational inertia requirements of the engine manufacturer.
There
> are of course some buyers who believe that the longer the prop the faster
> and insist on too large of a prop for the engine. WRONG! See my paper
> on selecting the right prop for your Rotax powered aircraft. The inertia
> limit for the Airmaster with the wide chord Warp Drive blades is 67-67.5
> inches. Lighter blades and hubs can be longer in blade length but the
> Rotax won=99t turn it and actually the plane will slow down. At 75
inches
> the Rotax powered aircraft won=99t exceed 95-100 Knots.
>
> >
>
> > Third issue: What about over pitch or lugging the engine, can I hurt
> the engine?
>
> > Car analogy, it is like starting out in 4th gear. Can you do it, yes,
> but listen to the engine lug and the clutch slip. (Your mechanic will
> love you for making his car payment.) Or perhaps trying to pass in 6th
> gear with the pedal to the floor without downshifting the gearbox. My
> favorite is pulling a trailer where at full throttle in 4th gear it is
> causing the engine and car to vibrate, knock, and rattle as it is trying
to
> pull the load and accelerate.
>
> >
>
> > If you fly routinely at RPMs (prop pitch settings) with manifold
> pressures that are higher than the prop curve (recommended settings) you
> are potentially lugging the Rotax engine. The throttle plate is open
> trying to hold the RPM, the engine is running richer trying to produce th
e
> power needed and your plugs are fowling. Worse, is the engine may begin
> detonating (aka ping) due to the fixed ignition, low fuel octane rating o
r
> similar issue.
>
> >
>
> > This lugging can be heard in the aircraft also. The prop at a higher
> pitch than optimum for the airspeed is stalling part of the prop. You
> can hear it thrashing, the engine begins to sound different. Rather than
> normal, like a sewing machine, it is making a deeper hum and some minor
> vibration can be felt in the calf muscles of the legs. Note that the
> carbureted engines which have fixed timing, detonation is a possibility i
f
> operating with low octane fuel in these conditions. As an example, I
> have to do this particular exercise in prop testing to check go around
> capability in high-speed aircraft (Europa, Fascination and similar) where
I
> simulate a prop stuck in full coarse pitch and the pilot must execute a g
o
> around. The Rotax 9 Series will do this 4000 RPM full throttle drill
> using 100LL fuel, but it sounds like the description above. Does the
> engine take it, YES, does it like it, NO.
>
> >
>
> > Bottom line, the Europa has a wide speed range so we can fly in areas
> where the prop may be driven rather than the engine driving the prop. Th
is
> can cause the gearbox to rattle. Those who have too much prop pitch for
> the power setting (constant speed commanding lower RPM than the prop powe
r
> curve in the manual) the engine is potentially lugging and you are
> wasting gas and running inefficiently at a minimum.
>
> >
>
> > As a pilot and student of aviation learn your Manifold/RPM settings
> until you get experience.
>
> > In the 912 or 912S equipped with a fixed pitch prop, set the prop pitch
> to achieve 5200 static at full throttle. Go fly with reckless abandon
> without over speeding the engine in a dive. Note in a dive to pull the
> throttle or slow down to keep the gearbox from rattling or over speeding.
>
> >
>
> > I do not recommend setting a fixed pitch prop to below 5000 RPM at full
> throttle static any longer. Those using lower octane auto fuel may find
> the engine begins to detonate in some conditions. (Note: for sales
> testing our cruise numbers were done at 4000 static and full throttle to
> get the top speed and 10,000 foot cruise speed numbers up. Not a good
> rule with auto fuel, but we didn=99t notice detonation using 100LL.
) 5200
> at full static power precludes these detonation issues, especially with
> MOGAS.
>
> >
>
> > With a Constant Speed prop and a 912 or 912S Set Climb RPM (5500) nearl
y
> any throttle setting will do.
>
> > Cruise at 5000 and above sea level just about any throttle setting won
=99t
> lug the engine.
>
> > Personally, =9CTakeoff=9D setting and full throttle for tak
eoff, then once
> safely airborne, simply click or set 5500 for climb at full throttle, cli
mb
> to altitude and click or set 5000 at full throttle and you will be fine
> as I=99ve never seen a manifold pressure on the 912 series go above
26 inches
> in a Europa at full throttle above sea level. It is as close to a FADEC
> as one can get. Just slap the throttle up to full and click for the
> phase of flight.
>
> >
>
> > The 914 power settings are not as simple but easy to remember.
>
> > These numbers are for efficiency and are not limitations:
>
> > Takeoff prop setting and full throttle (5700 RPM / 38-40=9DMP) u
ntil
> safely airborne.
>
> > Climb: Click or set 5500/34-35=9D (a 100% stop is really nice t
o have)
>
> > Cruise Normal click or cruise at 5000/31=9D, for better milage
> 4800/28-29=9D is nice and comfortable and gas milage is about 30 MP
G.
>
> > Loiter with the prop at 4300-4500 / 22-28=9DMP. You will be airb
orne
> forever. But going slow.
>
> > Downwind to landing, set prop to Climb or Takeoff, the prop will be
> stopped at the fine pitch limit, and normally you will be 4000 RPM / 20-2
2=9D
> or so at 1000 MSL.
>
> > No issues will occur at these settings and the engine runs superbly. S
etting
> Manifold Pressures below the prop curve is not an issue in operating the
> 912 or 914 series.
>
> >
>
> > Anytime you have a constant speed prop on a Rotax, set the fine pitch
> stop to limit full power max RPM to about 5650 RPM to prevent an overspee
d
> due to rapid throttle advancement in an emergency go around. Set the
> coarse limit stop to about 4000 for the Europa static on the ground at fu
ll
> power. If you have a 914 please install a 100% stop as you will reduce
> the potential for overspeed or lugging on a go around or touch and goes.
Should
> you have a prop stuck at the coarse stop (4000 or so) the climb out at 10
0%
> or 115% is quite comfortable with no issues for short term operations. T
he
> engine operates fine up to the 100% stop limit in the 914 and even the 91
2S
> but you can tell it is lugging from the sound and vibration.
>
> >
>
> > I prefer to have my clients keep their head in the books, know the
> recommended pitch and power settings for flight and the RPM/MP limits of
> the 914/912S. Running cheap gas and excessive pitch can cause
> detonation, avoid it. Keeping the plane light and simple increases speed
> and reduces wear and tear.
>
> >
>
> > As far as changing the gearbox design, getting more power or speed by
> adding components and then doing reliability testing is fine, but my
> comment is changing the gearbox/fuel system/ignition may fix one thing
> but it will affect many others (like weight size and complexity). Not
> worth my time. For me, if the engine isn=99t broke, don=99t
fix it. But
> performance increases is an interesting topic over a beer or two.
>
> >
>
> > Have a happy and productive new year to all.
>
> > Bud Yerly
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Read this topic online here:
>
> >
>
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.
matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D509824%23509824&data=05%7C01%7C%7C5b3
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638077951951512829%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2lu
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>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Attachments:
>
> >
>
> >
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>
> >
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> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
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>
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