So do I, I want a ride in your motorglider! Last time I felt wave under the
wings was in Roger Mills Classic. =0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________
___________________=0AFrom: "Twigg, Alan" <Alan.Twigg@rolls-royce.com>=0ATo
: europa-list@matronics.com; Europa-List Digest List <europa-list-digest@ma
tronics.com>=0ASent: Wednesday, 26 May, 2010 8:36:42=0ASubject: Europa-List
: RE: Europa-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 05/25/10=0A=0A--> Europa-List message po
sted by: "Twigg, Alan" <Alan.Twigg@rolls-royce.com>=0A=0AHas anyone fitted
retracting outriggers to the motorglider wing? My=0Awings are getting tanta
lisingly close, just wish the fuselage was=0Akeeping up. =0AAlan Twigg=0A
=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.co
m=0A[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Europa-Lis
t=0ADigest Server=0ASent: 26 May 2010 07:58=0ATo: Europa-List Digest List
=0ASubject: Europa-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 05/25/10=0A=0A*=0A=0A====
======================0A Online
Versions of Today's List Digest Archive=0A==========
================0A=0AToday's complete Europa-
List Digest can also be found in either of the =0Atwo Web Links listed belo
w. The .html file includes the Digest=0Aformatted =0Ain HTML for viewing w
ith a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes =0Aand Message Navigatio
n. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version =0Aof the Europa-List Di
gest and can be viewed with a generic text editor =0Asuch as Notepad or wit
h a web browser. =0A=0AHTML Version:=0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/diges
t/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Cha=0Apter 10-05-25&Archive
=Europa=0A=0AText Version:=0A=0A=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/digest/digest
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=0A=0A=0A======================
==0A EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive=0A======
==================0A=0A=0A ----
------------------------------------------------------=0A
Europa-List Digest Archive=0A
---=0A Total Messages Posted Tue 05/25/10: 6=0A
----------------------------------------------------------=0A=0A=0AToda
y's Message Index:=0A----------------------=0A=0A 1. 11:06 AM - Re: Out
rigger wheel fork (Kevin Klinefelter)=0A 2. 01:02 PM - Re: Effects of
Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim=0A(JonSmith)=0A 3. 01:51 PM - Re: Re:
Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim=0A(Raimo Toivio)=0A 4. 02:5
4 PM - Trim and such (Fergus Kyle)=0A 5. 03:31 PM - XS Wing/Fuse Fairi
ngs on a Classic?? (Tony Renshaw)=0A 6. 06:26 PM - Re: Outrigger wheel
fork (Fred Klein)=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________ Message 1
=0AFrom: "Kevin Klinefelter" <kevann@gotsky.com>=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List
: Outrigger wheel fork=0A=0AErich,=0AYour fully retracting outriggers into
the wings are very slick! And the =0Awheel forks, so simple. I bet they are
a lot lighter than the original =0Awheel and fork.=0AKevin=0AN211KA XS Mon
o 914=0A=0A________________________________ Message 2=0A__________________
: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch Trim=0AFrom: "JonSmith" <jonsm
itheuropa@tiscali.co.uk>=0A=0A=0AHi Jos & Graham, My theory about the tailp
lane was based on the=0Aprinciple of a=0AFULLY aerodynamically balanced "al
l moving" tailplane, this being the=0Aperfect=0Asituation for efficiency. (
Jos - MY interpretation of "aerodynamically=0Abalanced"=0Abeing specificall
y related to an "all moving" tailplane that is not=0Adeflected=0Aat all fro
m it's current position by it's relative airflow, including=0Aany changes
=0Ato that airflow, ie the center or point of the lifting force (downforce)
=0Agenerated by the tailplane acts through the pivot (torque tube))=0A=0AHo
wever, IF Graham's info about the C of L being deliberately designed=0Ato b
e NOT=0Aquite acting through the pivot (due to this short period oscillatio
n -=0Awhatever=0Athat is!) is true, and I am very pleased and interested to
bow to his=0Amost=0Aextensive experience of the Europa development and lea
rn about this,=0Athen this=0Ameans that the Europa tailplane is not quite p
erfectly aerodynamically=0Abalanced.=0AThus, unless the Angle of Attack of
the tailplane is at any time zero=0A(most=0Aunlikely) then a small tab defl
ection in the relevant direction would be=0Arequired=0Ato counter the rotat
ing force created on the tailplane by the airflow.=0A(I would class this as
another "unwanted" rotational force as in my=0Aprevious=0Atext under varia
nces!). This rotating force - and the corresponding=0Aamount of=0Atab defl
ection required to offset it to maintain trimmed flight would=0Avary slight
ly=0Adepending on the relative airflow to the tailplane and the correspondi
ng=0Aamount of lift (downforce) being generated. This aerodynamic imbalanc
e=0Aof=0Athe tailplane must I feel only be slight - the whole downforce gen
erated=0Aby the=0Atail is fairly small and is needed just to balance the wi
ng's own=0Aimbalance=0Aof forces.=0A(Question - WHY then are some people's
tabs completely flush in steady=0Atrimmed=0Aflight.....?!)=0A=0AThis aside
though, I still fully stand by my comments of how the=0Atailplane, especial
ly=0Athe tabs work in principle. The tabs, when trimmed by the pilot=0Acor
rectly,=0Ahold the tailplane in the desired position as set by the elevator
=0Acontrol.=0AThe tabs would ideally be flush (fully aerodynamically balanc
ed=0Atailplane)=0Abut will have a permanent, slightly variable deflection i
f Graham's info=0Aon the=0Atailplane not being fully aerodynamically balanc
ed is true (as I'm sure=0Ait=0Ais..!)=0A=0AJos - of course the trim control
is necessary - vital in fact to keep=0Athe elevator=0Acontrol where the pi
lot wants it and to provide "feel" or "weight" (the=0Aanti-trim=0Apart as y
ou call it) to the stick to stop the pilot "breaking things"=0Aas you most
eloquently put it! But I think that without trim tabs=0Afitted the=0Aeleva
tor control would be VERY LIGHT to move (not heavy) throughout the=0Aentire
=0Arange, dangerously so without extreme care. A perfectly aerodynamically
=0Abalanced=0A(all moving!) tailplane without trim tabs fitted would be com
pletely=0Awithout=0Aweight or feel at all throughout the entire elevator ra
nge (most=0Aundesirable).=0AThe trim tabs we have are very powerful being s
o far from the torque=0Atube=0Aand if set even slightly out of the correct
trimmed position would make=0Athe=0Astick very heavy to hold in position.
This of course is not force=0Agenerated by=0Athe tailplane itself, rather t
he (rotating) force being applied to the=0Atailplane=0Aby the incorrectly s
et trim (tabs).=0ABest Regards, Jon=0A(Sorry about the length again!)=0A=0A
--------=0AG-TERN=0AClassic Mono=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0A
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298854#298854=0A=0A=0A_______
_________________________ Message 3=0A____________________________________
.fi>=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Effects of Flaps and Ailerons on Pitch
=0ATrim=0A=0A=0AThis is what I think this topic shortly:=0A=0A1) we could
fix permanently the tabs and stop =0Atrimming but then we have to=0Aaccept
we loose also anti-servo-function which is=0Anecessary to generate some pil
ots stick forces.=0A=0AFlying with zero pitch forces by stick would be =0An
auseous and=0Adangerous.=0A=0A2) trimming function is there just to zero tr
im =0Atabsanti-servo=0Aloads when tailplanes are in their desidered=0Aposit
ion = when trimming pilot is in fact =0Ain-lining the=0Atabs with the tai
lplanes to zero the stick forces.=0A=0AStick loads means the tabs must be d
eflected more =0Aor less, no=0Astick loads means the tabs are in-lined with
=0Atailplanes = the plane is trimmed.=0A=0A3) if the trim tabs are slight
ly deflected when =0Athe plane is trimmed and there are no stick =0Aforces,
it means some unperfection with =0Atailplanes shape (foam structure, no NG
factory =0Amade).=0A=0A4) " aerodynamically balanced " tailplanes = the
=0Aforces which try to turn the tailplanes clockwise =0Aare always equal wi
th the forces which try to turn =0Athem anticlockwise.=0AThat is why they c
ould float in any position any =0Atime (without anti-servo function or pilo
ts hand =0Awhich keeps the stick steady).=0A=0AFrans, do you now have more
photos with varying =0Aspeeds and CofGs ?=0A=0ARaimo=0A--------------------
------------------------------=0AFrom: "JonSmith" <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali.c
o.uk>=0ASent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 11:00 PM=0ASubject: Europa-List: Re: Ef
fects of Flaps and =0AAilerons on Pitch Trim=0A=0A> <jonsmitheuropa@tiscali
.co.uk>=0A>=0A> Hi Jos & Graham, My theory about the tailplane =0A> was bas
ed on the principle of a FULLY =0A> aerodynamically balanced "all moving" t
ailplane, =0A> this being the perfect situation for efficiency. =0A> (Jos -
MY interpretation of "aerodynamically =0A> balanced" being specifically re
lated to an "all =0A> moving" tailplane that is not deflected at all =0A> f
rom it's current position by it's relative =0A> airflow, including any chan
ges to that airflow, =0A> ie the center or point of the lifting force =0A>
(downforce) generated by the tailplane acts =0A> through the pivot (torque
tube))=0A>=0A> However, IF Graham's info about the C of L being =0A> delibe
rately designed to be NOT quite acting =0A> through the pivot (due to this
short period =0A> oscillation - whatever that is!) is true, and I =0A> am v
ery pleased and interested to bow to his =0A> most extensive experience of
the Europa =0A> development and learn about this, then this =0A> means that
the Europa tailplane is not quite =0A> perfectly aerodynamically balanced.
Thus, =0A> unless the Angle of Attack of the tailplane is =0A> at any tim
e zero (most unlikely) then a small =0A> tab deflection in the relevant dir
ection would =0A> be required to counter the rotating force =0A> created on
the tailplane by the airflow. (I =0A> would class this as another "unwant
ed" =0A> rotational force as in my previous text under =0A> variances!). T
his rotating force - and the =0A> corresponding amount of tab deflection re
quired =0A> to offset it to maintain trimmed flight would =0A> vary slightl
y depending on the relative airflow =0A> to the tailplane and the correspon
ding amount of =0A> lift (downforce) being generated. This!=0A> aerodynam
ic imbalance of the tailplane must I =0A> feel only be slight - the whole d
ownforce =0A> generated by the tail is fairly small and is =0A> needed just
to balance the wing's own imbalance =0A> of forces.=0A> (Question - WHY th
en are some people's tabs =0A> completely flush in steady trimmed =0A> flig
ht.....?!)=0A>=0A> This aside though, I still fully stand by my =0A> commen
ts of how the tailplane, especially the =0A> tabs work in principle. The t
abs, when trimmed =0A> by the pilot correctly, hold the tailplane in =0A> t
he desired position as set by the elevator =0A> control. The tabs would id
eally be flush (fully =0A> aerodynamically balanced tailplane) but will =0A
> have a permanent, slightly variable deflection =0A> if Graham's info on t
he tailplane not being =0A> fully aerodynamically balanced is true (as I'm
=0A> sure it is..!)=0A>=0A> Jos - of course the trim control is necessary -
=0A> vital in fact to keep the elevator control where =0A> the pilot wants
it and to provide "feel" or =0A> "weight" (the anti-trim part as you call
it) to =0A> the stick to stop the pilot "breaking things" as =0A> you most
eloquently put it! But I think that =0A> without trim tabs fitted the elev
ator control =0A> would be VERY LIGHT to move (not heavy) =0A> throughout t
he entire range, dangerously so =0A> without extreme care. A perfectly =0A
> aerodynamically balanced (all moving!) tailplane =0A> without trim tabs f
itted would be completely =0A> without weight or feel at all throughout the
=0A> entire elevator range (most undesirable). The =0A> trim tabs we have
are very powerful being so far =0A> from the torque tube and if set even s
lightly =0A> out of the correct trimmed position would make =0A> the stick
very heavy to hold in position. This =0A> of course is not force generated
by the =0A> tailplane itself, rather the (rotating) force =0A> being appli
ed to the tailplane by the =0A> incorrectly set trim (tabs).=0A> Best Regar
ds, Jon=0A> (Sorry about the length again!)=0A>=0A> --------=0A> G-TERN=0A>
Classic Mono=0A>=0A>=0A> Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A> http://forum
s.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=298854#298854=0A>=0A>=0A> browse=0A> Un/S
ubscription,=0A> Chat, FAQ,=0A> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-L
ist=0A> Web Forums!=0A> List Admin.=0A>=0A>=0A> =0A=0A=0A__________________
______________ Message 4=0A_____________________________________=0A=0A=0AT
ropa-List: Trim and such=0A=0A I admire the authors of that exchange of
views regarding the=0Atabs on=0Athe Europa stabilator. I've had enough trai
ning in aerodynamics=0A(ca.1950)=0Aand forgotten most - to appreciate the m
ental shuttling required to=0Adesign=0Aand forestall the effects of the air
on the controls throughout the=0Atravel=0Arange.=0A Ivan and his associ
ates certainly have my respect. It DOES seem=0Ato=0Ame that disregarding in
accurate shape, inappropriate weight balance or=0Aexcess system friction, h
ands off trim should show the tabs aligned with=0Athe=0Astab. At any rate i
f not warned otherwise, I'll fuss if the tabs aren't=0Aaligned if/when flie
s.........=0A A064 is now anent C-FFGG.=0Acheers, Ferg=0A=0A____________
____________________ Message 5=0A_____________________________________=0A
om>=0ASubject: Europa-List: XS Wing/Fuse Fairings on a Classic??=0A=0A=0AGi
dday,=0AI am wondering if the profile of the XS is much different from the
=0Aclassic, meaning=0Athe Europa factory supplied fairings won't fit proper
ly?? I can't=0Aimagine=0Athere is much if any difference, as I imagine the
XS was moulded off a=0Agood classic=0Awing, but I don't know specifically,
only surmising. So, if anyone can=0Ahelp me out I'd appreciate it.=0AReg=0A
Tony Renshaw=0ASydney Aussie=0A=0A=0A________________________________ Mess
US=0AFrom: Fred Klein <fklein@orcasonline.com>=0ASubject: Re: Europa-List:
Outrigger wheel fork=0A=0A=0AOn May 25, 2010, at 5:50 AM, Kevin Klinefelte
r wrote:=0A=0A> Erich,=0A> Your fully retracting outriggers into the wings
are very slick! And =0A> the wheel forks, so simple.=0A=0AErich...I second
that...any pixs of the "doors"?=0A=0AFred=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
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